[skalie]

Has anyone measured how hot the 12 inch powerbooks are actually getting yet?

There's a freeware utility available from version tracker that shows temperatures if anyone is interested in running a test or two.

http://www.versiontracker.com/php/dl...id=9999&kind=0

[skalie]

Well that question sunk like a stone.

[jlbanker]

didn't run a test but it doesn't feel much hotter then the ibook. It gets a little warm on the left hand rest. But not too bad at all. It may even be a little less then the ibook. It is also much quieter.

[skalie]

Which iBook did you have jlbanker?

I have a 600 mhz model and it's as good as silent for my aged ears. (many years of rock 'n' roll)

[jlbanker]

My ibook was the 500mhz dual USB. I think there might have been a hard drive noise problem. From what I understand it depends on the brand hard drive how quiet your computer can be. I had a 466mhz ibook too that was so loud I had to have it worked on and they replaced the hard drive.

FYI. This computer is probably the best I have ever owned. I connected it to a 21 inch monitor and it worked flawless.

[issa]

skalie,

Two points.

First is that the software you provided a link to is out of date and isn't likely to work with the current generation of processors.

Second is that the junction temperature of the CPU wouldn't tell you how hot the machine feels to the user anyway.

Maybe this is why the thread never took off...

[fisherKing]

i've mentioned this before here, but here's my 2 cents...

i checked out the 12" at tekserve in new york.

really hot on the left, bad news for me as a lefty.

but...otherwise seems great, and i am getting one (soon anyway)

seemed as hot as my pismo working REALLY hard (on a hot day...)

[TheIceMan]

Originally posted by fisherKing:
i've mentioned this before here, but here's my 2 cents...

i checked out the 12" at tekserve in new york.

really hot on the left, bad news for me as a lefty.

but...otherwise seems great, and i am getting one (soon anyway)

seemed as hot as my pismo working REALLY hard (on a hot day...)

I also had a chance to test out the 12" model at the Apple store in San Diego. Although it did not feel REALLY HOT, it was VERY WARM. I know this is subjective. I would consider things this way:
1] REALLY HOT = don't touch
2] HOT = can touch but only for a short time
3] VERY WARM = unpleasant to the touch after extended contact.

I would classify my impression of the heat issue for the 12" as VERY WARM. I don't think it would burn your wrist or hand if you touched it after it's been put through a hard days work. But, I certainly would not put it on my bare lap or rest my wrist on it for any long period of time. Hope that helps.

[itai195]

Been running my 12" PB for about 5 hours now, charging the battery on and off, and installing apps... It's not too hot at all, at least not on the bottom or around the trackpad.

[skalie]

Originally posted by issa:
skalie,

Two points.

First is that the software you provided a link to is out of date and isn't likely to work with the current generation of processors.

Second is that the junction temperature of the CPU wouldn't tell you how hot the machine feels to the user anyway.

Maybe this is why the thread never took off...

Thanks for that, I was curious.

The curiousity about temperature actually arose before the 12 inch powerbook was released, there was a school of thought that said that the iBook would never be able to handle a G4 unless the body was radically altered, with a titanium body or suchlike.

Maybe one of those digital thermometer thingies could provide some stats?

[itai195]

Alright, nevermind. It does get pretty hot, at least on the bottom while charging. As hot as the original TiBooks I'd say. Not too bad all in all, but might be bad to some people.

[issa]

skalie writes:
Maybe one of those digital thermometer thingies could provide some stats?

I think the anecdotal reports from folks actually using the machine should give you a clear enough picture.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

However, if you are bent on seeing specific figures, a digital thermometer will do it. In another thread, I was summarizing the impressions of one Mac reporter in Japan. He did the very testing of which you write.

Warning: the following two pages are in Japanese. I only note them so you can see the reporter's pics for reference:
http://www.zdnet.co.jp/macwire/0301/23/nj00_12pbg4.html
http://www.zdnet.co.jp/macwire/0301/..._12pbg4_2.html

For your convenience, I've posted the results below and marked temps over 100 F in red.

Test #0 - Sitting idle with just the Finder running.
Room temperature 18.3 C (65 F) = fairly cool room

(1) 31.9 C (89.4 F) : Left palm rest (near center)
(2) 28.9 C (84.0 F) : Trackpad center
(3) 25.8 C (78.4 F) : Right palm rest (near center)
(4) 27.2 C (81.0 F) : "2/@" key
(5) 32.7 C (90.9 F) : Ledge behind the F1 key (where mic is)
(6) 33.2 C (91.8 F) : Ledge at display center (behind F6 + F7 keys)
(7) 28.0 C (82.4 F) : At power button (behind F12 key)

Test #1 - DVD playback - 1 hr. 10 mins.
Room temperature 19.0 C (66.2 F) = cool room

(1) 34.5 (94.1)
(2) 32.4 (90.3)
(3) 29.5 (85.1)
(4) 30.9 (89.4)
(5) 38.5 (101.3)
(6) 37.6 (99.7)
(7) 33.5 (92.3)

Test #2 - iMovie playback from connected DV camera
Room temperature 19.3 C (66.7)

(1) 33.8 (92.8)
(2) 30.7 (87.3)
(3) 28.6 (83.5)
(4) 31.4 (88.5)
(5) 40.7 (105.6)
(6) 39.4 (102.9)
(7) 32.1 (89.8)

Test #3 - MP3 compression using Lame 0.0.4
Room temperature 18.3 C (65 F) = cool room

(1) 37.9 (100.2)
(2) n/a
(3) n/a
(4) 32.1 (89.8)
(5) 41.6 (106.9) At this point the fan kicked in
(6) n/a
(7) n/a

Hope that makes you happy.

[f1000]

I think that most people will resort to using the PB in their lap mostly in cramped spaces, where it is also either a hassle or impossible to use a power outlet. With processor cycling on, I would guess that the PB would run cooler.

[skalie]

Thanks issa, sorry I missed the other thread.

[issa]

You are most welcome, skalie.

Please do keep in mind that those figures simply represent the tests of one person who pushed the machine fairly hard to see how it performed under load. As such, I think they bear little direct relation with what individual users will experience. Again, you're best off playing with a 12" PB for yourself as you judge the anecdotal impressions reported by others.

Have fun!

[all2ofme]

Issa, you're invaluable

Could you let us know what the story is here?:

http://www.zdnet.co.jp/macwire/0301/27/xbench1l.gif

That was taken from this page

Odd behaviour...

Edit: fixed URL.

[issa]

Why, thank you, all2ofme. Maybe I'll have you write my wife later and plead on my behalf.

Yes, I saw that article. In all honesty, I was hesitant to mention the contents of the latest entry to that series because I don't want people to think I am personally trying to say anything negative about the new 12" PB. Believe me, I'm not! While the reporter covering the 12" PB wants to like everything about it, he is blunt and honest when it comes to pointing out the weaknesses. So, please realize that the following are his findings as you read on...

In that reporter's test, it became apparent to him that performance slowed greatly when he hooked the 12" PB up to an external CRT monitor and ran the machine with the lid closed as to run with just the CRT monitor. The GIF file you provided the link to shows the Xbench 1.0b6 results of the 12" PB running on its own (at right), and running with only the CRT monitor (at left). As you can see, the speed drops significantly.

Another detail is that the fan runs full time when the 12" PB is connected to any external monitor and run with the lid closed. The reporter came to the conclusion that the PowerBook likely couldn't cool itself well enough with the lid closed otherwise. The PowerBook doesn't get overly hot running this way, but the reporter again concluded that the 12"' PB likely isn't designed to run with just an external monitor on a regular basis.

Now that I've come this far, here's what he covers on the next page of that article. Boot-up times and Photoshop tests showed the 12" PB to keep up brilliantly and even outperform the reporter's Power Mac G4 450/Dual with an old Radeon card in it. He also ran some tests to see if he could get the machine to boot in OS 9, but he couldn't. As part of this test, he noticed that, (at least on his test machine), the backlighting isn't even. It seems that the bottom of the display is brighter than the top.

That's about it.

Edit: In light of Icruise's corrected reading, it now appears that the 12" PB toggles back on CPU performance when using an external monitor with the PB's lid closed. Period. As such, I removed the following misleading paragraph:
Now the good news. There is almost no slowdown when running only with an external LCD, or with both the internal LCD and either an external LCD or CRT. As such, I don't think this quirk will bother more than a small number of users. The reporter happens to use a CRT monitor, or he may not have run this specific comparison.

[all2ofme]

I feel silly saying thanks again, issa, so take it as read, ok?

Very interesting. I wonder if the reason for the lower performance is that the machine is throttling CPU performance back when closed so as not to create a heat problem. That would also explain the fan coming on as described, though it wouldn't explain why the performance *isn't* reduced when only running an external LCD. Weird. How can the machine know whether it's a CRT or an LCD attached?

Either way, as it stands, I'm one of the few who will be put off by this since my requirements in a machine dictate that when I open Photoshop I want full speed, correct colour (which to me means a CRT) and a higher res than 1024 x 768.

Did he say if the fan behaviour when closed was objectionably loud? I hate fan issues - feels as if I'm tiptoeing around each time it comes up - it always seems to provoke a massive flurry of posts saying contradictory things

Edit: forgetful me - want speed as well as the colour and high res.

[icruise]

As I read that article I don't think he was saying that performance was different between external CRTs vs LCDs. He didn't in fact test it using an external LCD. The point was that when using an external monitor (presumably either an LCD or CRT, but as I say he only tested a CRT) with the powerbook's lid closed, the system performance was drastically decreased. When using the external monitor in conjunction with the internal LCD (monitor spanning) there was no problem.

This doesn't bother me particularly, since I will be using monitor spanning, but it is admittedly strange.

[TheIceMan]

issa
Thank you for the details. Just wanted to let you know that your feedback and constructive response and helpful attitude is GREATLY appreciated in this forum. We need more members like you issa

[issa]

Sorry to contradict what Icruise kindly wrote. However, while the reporter is not explicit in his use of language, he did test with CRT and LCD monitors, and only the external CRT as a lone monitor -uh- displayed the performance hit. He gives the benchmark results averaged after 3 runs from a Japanese software titled PostPetMark, as follows:[list=1] [*]External LCD only : 4370 [*]External CRT only : 2199[*]Dual w/external LCD : 4356 [*]Mirroring : 4363 [/list=1]
Note: The reporter does not note which external monitor he used for the mirroring test.

Edit: Oops. I carelessly copy/pasted the benchmark for "3. Dual w/external LCD" incorrectly as 4370, so corrected it the proper 4356.

[issa]

all2ofme writes:
How can the machine know whether it's a CRT or an LCD attached?

Good question. One I'd like to ask the reporter if I have time. It'll be fun to see how he replies.

Did he say if the fan behaviour when closed was objectionably loud?

No, he makes no mention of this. Another good question to hit Kobayashi with.

[icruise]

Originally posted by issa:
Sorry to contradict what Icruise kindly wrote. However, while the reporter is not explicit in his use of language, he did test with CRT and LCD monitors, and only the external CRT as a lone monitor -uh- displayed the performance hit. He gives the benchmark results averaged after 3 runs from a Japanese software titled PostPetMark, as follows:[list=1] [*]External LCD only : 4370 [*]External CRT only : 2199[*]Dual w/external LCD : 4370 [*]Mirroring : 4363 [/list=1]
Note: The reporter does not note which external monitor he used for the mirroring test.

I think you are wrong here, although it is a rather confusingly written thing.

Here are the numbers taken directly from the article and translated into English.

（1）単体LCDのみ　(Internal LCD only): 4370

（2）単体CRTのみ　(External CRT only): 2199

（3）Dual LCD側　 (Dual display, internal LCD side): 4356

（4）Dual CRT側　 Dual display, external CRT side): 4370

（5）ミラーリング　Mirroring: 4363

The key work here is 側 or gawa, meaning side. "Dual LCD側" does not mean that he is running dual LCD displays, but rather that this is the score for the LCD side. (presumably the score differs depending on what screen you run the program on? At least that is the only explanation for using that word I can think of). Also remember that it doesn't make any sense for there to be a "Dual CRT" score if my interpretation isn't correct, since there is no way to have dual CRT screens on the powerbook.

[issa]

Thanks for the encouraging words, TheIceMan. Almost makes up for all the time I should have been working. Now I get to make up for it by burning the candle at both ends again tonight in order to meet an impossible writing deadline for tomorrow.

[issa]

Icruise justly sets me right:
I think you are wrong here, although it is a rather confusingly written thing.

Yes, I believe you are right. Wow. Goes to prove that I should have managed more than three hours of sleep per night the last four days. Ouch. Sorry 'bout that.

I haven't bothered to test PostPetMark, but suppose it could give different results depending on the type of monitor due to diferent refresh rates, etc.?

[icruise]

I'll let you off this once...

[issa]

I'll let you off this once...

Thanks, Icruise. That gives me at least a few more minutes before I get in trouble. Time to practice up on my Mishima routine...

I'll satisfy my bruised pride by telling myself it's not only the lack of sleep, but equally due to the haste in which I tried to reply to all2ofme's question when I should have been working. Sigh.

Back to the conversation now. In light of the corrected reading, we might expect the 12" PB to throttle back when connected to any external monitor and running with the lid closed. Ouch.

...am I back in trouble already?

[icruise]

I don't really think that it is that great an idea to use the powerbook with the lid closed anyway, due to heat issues. And I also don't understand why people wouldn't want to use the monitor spanning feature if they have an external monitor. Can anyone explain the advantage of using an external monitor with the lid closed?

If there was a performance hit when using dual monitors, I could see wanting to only use the external monitor, but that doesn't seem to be that case (indeed, just the opposite).

[all2ofme]

Now I can by no means speak, write or read Japanese, but my linguistics background would suggest that if you compare the Japanese in the following:

（1）単体LCDのみ　
(Internal LCD only): 4370

（2）単体CRTのみ　
(External CRT only): 2199

...that it doesn't seem to be possible to get "internal" and "external" from two identical character pairings.

Please tell me that I'm wrong if I am, but would it not be more likely that the translation of this would read as follows?:

(1) External LCD only: 4370
(2) External CRT only: 2199 (given that an internal CRT isn't all that likely)

This would mean that we'd be back at square one with the issue, though, since then we would be getting different results depending on whether a CRT or an LCD is plugged in to the closed laptop.

Yours with no idea and no Japanese experience

[issa]

all2ofme,

As bizarre as it sounds, and as full of ambiguities as the Japanese language can be, the identical character pairings here do take on different meaning. In this case, they simply mean "alone", or "on its own", so we wind up with:
(1) LCD only: 4370
(2) CRT only: 2199

So, Icruise's correction stands. And you are free to retract all kind words you directed my way earlier. Sob. Serves me right for rushing and not slowing down to read the article properly.

Think Dual

[icruise]

Well, I am actually a Japanese translator, but of course that doesn't mean that I've never made a mistake.

But if you go from the context it does indeed mean what I mentioned. Nowhere in the article does he mention testing an external LCD screen -- his only use of the word LCD is in reference to the Powerbook's internal LCD screen. The two sections of the graphic you linked to are also labeled "external CRT" and "normal LCD".

Frankly, as I mentioned before, it is not the most clearly worded thing in the world, but Japanese often omits subjects or implies things that would be spelled out explicitly in English.

[icruise]

And by the way, just let me echo the kind words of people about issa's contribution here -- I don't think I would have spared the time to do such a detailed translation/commentary. Keep it up, by all means!

[all2ofme]

I love it!

Issa, when you wrote:

(1) LCD only: 4370
(2) CRT only: 2199

That was exactly what I meant (except that I wrote *external* for both following iCruise's inclusion of "external" and "internal" in his translation).

When iCruise made it clearer by explicitly stating in his translation that the LCD in question was the internal one I got confused with the characters surrounding the words LCD and CRT in the article. Fain Brade at work.

Luckily, now it makes sense any way you look at it:

12" Powerbook S L O W when hooked up to ANY external monitor while closed. Ugh!

Thank you both very much for your work!

[issa]

Thanks, Icruise.

How embarrassing. After 20 years of specializing in Japanese literature, writing a thesis in Japanese, and reading everything from Heian period classical language to all varieties of modern cultural and technical pap, I have trouble forgiving myself. Not to mention the fact that I make a good chunk of my income translating to English. Even started and ran a high-end Mac business in town for a few years, more out of hobby interest than anything. Guess I should be ashamed. Still, as you wrote, we all make mistakes. Hopefully, I'm a bit more careful when it comes to taking care of my clients' needs.

And to think. I could have bought a nice peripheral in the time spent instead of exposing myself for the fool I am...[Picture little boy with head bowed over and pout on his face, kicking a pebble as he slinks off into the distance.]

[icruise]

We sound like very similar people, issa. I tend to obsess about mistakes too. And I also have a masters in Japanese lit... Hmmm. Seperated at birth?

[issa]

We sound like very similar people, issa.

Yeah, we both spend too much time hanging out reading about a certain computer platform.

I tend to obsess about mistakes too.

I like to think this compulsion ensures that I perform my job well; if nothing else.

And I also have a masters in Japanese lit...

This is getting spooky.

Hmmm. Seperated at birth?

Yeah, like in the movie Twins. You're Arnold and I'm Danny, right?!
Or, as Dicky always said to Tommy, "Mom always loved you best."

----- -----

Now, to prove that I won't get really bent out of shape and spiteful because I feel guilty about my own miss, I won't even split hairs and suggest that, in context, the proper translation of �i�ʏ�LCD�j should have been "internal LCD" and not "normal LCD". I mean, Danny was the petty brat, wasn't he?

[icruise]

You Japanese translators can be so picky sometimes. Actually I think "standard LCD" would have been the better translation, come to think of it...

[issa]

Okay. If you insist, "standard" it is. Japanese translators can be so rigid and reluctant to accept alternate suggestions.

I realize this ain't the place to do it, but let's talk lit sometime, eh?!

Back on topic. The 12" PB gets warm on the left and on the left bottom. BTW, for anybody who is still following this and is interested, there appears to be no new update today to the series of articles I was summarizing.